no benefit to marriage

Taxes are often lower. If it were any other way, you couldn’t ever prosecute polygamy because if the second marriage is void, then how are you married twice and if the second marriage is valid, how is it a crime? Not all relationship transitions are transformative, but marriage is meant to be. If you move in with your boyfriend who is separated but not divorced–and you know he’s separated but not divorced–you are a bigamist, even if you’ve never been married yourself. Got to get them when they are young and don’t know any better. Regardless of how much the behavior of males and females may change in the years ahead, I believe that Steve Nock had it right when, in one of the last works he wrote before his untimely passing, he predicted that marriage would become an increasingly potent signal of commitment as other relationship forms become more common (i.e., cohabitation). The current administration’s trade policies have left the incoming president some low-hanging fruit. The self-described "crazy-ass man" and libertarian economist focused on government's role in perpetuating racial inequality. This is making my head hurt and I have not even gone out drinking after the good news at work, much less earning a hangover. Like christ rock said, if you like fu**in, marriage ain’t for you. But we’re not. And sex with a 16 year old? Yet another example of why the state should get out of the marriage business. “So how is a polygamist who marries two different women different than a deadbeat who impregnates two different women? Allowing polygyny is common in cultures, but few men manage to attract mutiple wive. A single taxpayer without paid work isn’t generally eligible to … And sex with a 16 year old? But, that doesn’t keep you from being guilty of polygamy. Women’s aversion to it is why polygamy is almost always associated with child brides. Just because polygamy is practiced by mysogonistic peoples does not make the practice itself mysogonistic. They may not be old enough (legally or morally) to give meaningful consent, but there’s a big difference between an adult man who is sexually attracted to a sexually mature person and one who is attracted to sexually immature children. But in upholding Holm’s convictions, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that marry in this context includes a religious union with no legal standing. You live in a free forward looking society and benifit from people following some basic moral rules and then deny the validity of those very rules. And contrary to popular stereotypes, it was not very hard to get out of a polygamous marriage; Brigham Young himself gave one of his own wives who was unhappy with the arragement a divorce without much fuss. Living Together Versus Marriage: Benefits and Risks Over the Long Run When it comes to emotional well-being, young adults -- especially women -- seem to get as much of a boost from living with a partner as they do from marriage… Since Utah has since amended their law (Utah Code section 76-7-101.5, making the conduct as issue a 2nd degee felony, 1-15 years of imprisonment) to cover just this situation, why not just give the guy the max at sentencing (5 years) and then hammer his ass when he tries to do it again? The exception is when a husband has to much wealth that 1/2 of his income is greater than the average man’s income. Stage 1: He is a bigamist because he TRIED to knowingly marry someone while he was married. Steve Adler attended his daughter's 20-person wedding and then traveled with out-of-state family and friends. On a lighter note, men said that one benefit of not marrying was that, if they were to marry, their girlfriend-now-wife would tell them what to do. “Marriage without benefits” is just “marriage” in my experience. Further, they reported experiencing almost no social pressures to marry; not from family, not from friends, and not from the families of the women they live with. “And the polygamy rights movement is so much larger too. Joe I don’t think it is an inconsistancy. Further, the state draws lines. Further, unless you are going to start mandating that far more girls be born than boys, by allowing polygamy you are depriving men of the ability to marry. I hope Reason does not become a shill for polygamists and their child brides. Laws can sometimes be hard to sort out, that’s why courts are needed. Third, that everyone who wants to marry will find a suitable mate from within the options available to them (ASK me why I don’t date American women!). Those of you outside of Utah might want to know that this is the only state in the Union which has anti-polygamy written into the state Constitution. Interested in learning more about the work of the Institute for Family Studies? In addition to being happier and healthier than bachelors, married men earn more money and live longer. Marriage is an important and essential for human life. Today, birth control, modern jobs, bisexuality, and gender equality make the old rules of thumb obsolete. Holm argued that he did not “purport to marry” in a legal sense because everyone involved understood that the marriage would not be recognized by the state. “Around the country, there are many different forms of consenting-adult polygamists with fully different reasons for how they conduct themselves. It doesn’t seem to be much of a threat. Legal Benefits: If one … As for the under 18 bit, I have been unable to find any statute regarding age of sexual consent, but is 16 really that close to “child”? That doesn’t excuse taking advantage of an emotionally immature girl in this case, but using the loaded words “child molester” is wrong and, in my view, immoral. “So which is it: if polygamy is legal then everybody will be doing it and we will have a society of restless single men or women just don’t get it and won’t participate, ergo, no problem?”. So which is it: if polygamy is legal then everybody will be doing it and we will have a society of restless single men or women just don’t get it and won’t participate, ergo, no problem? It’s a silly hair-splitting done in order to support the state’s crusade against polygamy. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Unlimited marital tax deduction is the biggest tax benefit a married couple can receive, Blank Rome LLP matrimonial lawyer and partner Dylan S. Mitchell says. I’d buy that, John, if it was two different “marriages” that we were talking about. He’d rather selectively enforce it against members of unpopular religious groups. | Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. I married someone to journey through life with. Jobless spouse can have an IRA. That fact does not mean we should walk all the way down the road and endorse polygamy. Polygamy back then had a strong practical element to it, ensuring that there were no widows or spinsters in the community who did not have some source of protection or support. Marriage and Children. P.O. Max Gulker . Young men associate marriage with increased responsibilities and with a greater possibility of financial loss. The top Democrats originally supported a $2.2 trillion measure. Look at it this way. Holm argued that he did not "purport to marry" in a legal sense because everyone involved understood that the marriage would not be recognized by the state. That's because men tend to lean on their wives for a majority of … The data are more scarce on how women change when they get married; however, there seems to be less reason to believe that women have a similar sense that they or their responsibilities will change dramatically when they get married. When you take the second wife, you are committing the act of being married and comitting the crime. If marriage has been a particularly strong signal of a change in men’s committed behavior, it would explain the stereotype of women pushing for marriage and men resisting. A survey-based study in the Journal of Sociology revealed that "married respondents experience per person net … They need to have decided that “this woman is my future,” and once they’ve decided, the internal transformation occurs. I will ask again, is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women, or that one of his ‘brides’ was under 18? Interesting choice of divisive words. Being married twice is illegal. You can always feel free to share your wildest secrets, and can be assured that it will never … And we know he will. Of course, we see just how non-mysogonistic Romans were. In a sense it is. Third, research on sacrifice in marriage provides another window on potential differences between men and women. So, basically, he is a bigamist because he married the girl, but he raped her because he did not marry her… It is not the first time, nor will this be the last time, that government faux judges make such aberrant “legal” decisions. Nick Gillespie You make a bunch of assumptions about people and espouse a prohibition based on the generalized acts of a few. See? One of the men’s biggest fears about marriage? Might this lead to interesting rulings with respect to gay marriage? | He is obviously guilty of that. I don’t give a shit what the Utah law says, there are lots of bullshit laws. Polygamy is inherently misogynistic and there is not one society that allows it that isn’t grossly misogynistic. Why? (herewith, the thread is now officially dead). Having sex with a 16 year old wife is legal. But it might make things messier if the two of you decide to end things. This is totally consistent with the way stronger commitment transforms one’s sense of a relationship. Thanks for your interest in supporting the work of The Institute for Family Studies. In general marriage should not happen for any benefits. 3.1.2007 1:13 PM. Then the second wife would get more child support during the marriage than if she married a less wealthy monogamist. Since the wedding has no legal effect beyond making him guilty of polygamy, he is guilty of sexually abusing the girl. If so, how could he be convicted of bigamy? Second, that a polygamous society is closed, with no option for marriage except within that society. Polyandry is rare, but you find it in Tibet, where the lack of resources calls for a lower child parent ratio. There were few “crimes” as almost everything was solved in a civil manner, repayment for wrong doing instead of jail. 12.2.2020 5:18 PM. The court didn’t say that he was “married enough” to commit bigamy, because you don’t have to be married at all (to the second wife) to commit bigamy. Children raised by their own married mother and father are: Less likely to be … Now, if the government would stop issuing these “who you can do” licenses we would all be much better off. When you do, it is obvious that many people are saying foolish things. Better yet, get the prenup, get a religious marriage (if that’s your thing) and keep the state out of it altogether. It’s time to get the government out of marriage. As stated above, one wife at a time is more than enough. They oppose the underage crimes coming out of one single mormon polygamous sect. Go to the middle east where it is done and look at those societies. For example, weddings are a big expense for many couples. Therefore, at this stage he is a bigamist in Utah. The system worked for multiple wives. If there is a problem, it is a problem with the statute, not the ruling. Social security benefits. Why isn’t the state going after men who fly from blossom to blossum without any sense of commitment, instead of throwing men who have committed in a religious ceremony to support two different women in jail?”. One of the benefits of marriage is that you never have to keep any secrets with your spouse. As far as polyandry, I don’t know of one place it is practiced. Donate Now, Katherine Mangu-Ward It’s moot because SCOTUS didn’t take the case, but isn’t the fact that the A.G. isn’t the lack of enforcement in the situation Captain Holly noted at 1:58, a violation of Equal Protection? I never understood the allure of bigamy. No way because the state doesn’t recognize second marriages. That would seem to be preferable to allowing the State to torture the plain meaning of and the policy behind, the unlawful sex with a minor and the bigamy statutes. Who wouldn’t want that? We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Financial issues and legalities such as inheritance can be easier to sort out when a couple is married. Some working-class women, for instance, have revealed in interviews that they resist marriage because it is harder to exit than cohabitating relationships. Quite an important aspect when you’re stuck out in a untamed frontier several hundred miles from the nearest civilization. Lastly, while it may not take off much in our current society, who is to say that will always be the case? “I will ask again, is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women, or that one of his ‘brides’ was under 18?”. However, they may not benefit as much as men may. Outside of a desire to have children, marriage benefits for a man follow the law of diminished returns. Yet no one considers that to be a problem anymore; I don’t see the Utah AG going after any of them (unless they don’t pay their child support). It is doubtless true that women’s increased economic opportunities, as well as the changes in the roles of men and women in families, may substantially alter the types of commitment dynamics I’ve described. Women were not marginalized but revered. Your claim will have no impact on … Had both women been over 18, then obviously he is not guilty of sexual abuse of a minor and couldn’t be prosecuted for it. Holm, who married Ruth Stubbs, his legal wife's 16-year-old sister, in a religious ceremony, is something of an embarassment to polygamists who believe in plural marriage only among consenting adults. It does create a “marriage” in terms of making you guilty of “polygamy”. There are a number of possible interpretations of findings like this. Now, stage 2: This bigamist sleeps with a 16 year old that legally isn’t his wife. I believe that men resist marriage more than women primarily because they believe marriage requires a substantial increase in their behavioral commitment—and they don’t always feel ready for that transition. Since however, the state doesn’t recognize polygamy, that second marriage is against state policy and legally void except to make you guilty of polygamy. Are they still freaks? It’s just that the Utah AG doesn’t dare enforce it that way. In other words, do you feel this man should be convicted because he had two women or that he appears to be a child molester?”. Same way here, he can’t use the defense of “being married” to the charge of having sex with a minor. So John, Is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women at once or that his second ‘bride’ was 16? Polygamy adjusts the reproductive rate to match what the parents can support. There’s no inconsistency. Please strike “the fact that the A.G. isn’t” in the first sentence of my previous post. Whatever crimes this man committed (of which only the statutory rape should be an issue), calling him a child molester only confuses the issue. From tax savings to better retirement options — … Humans just dont’ seem to be wired that way. I don’t feel the court was inconsistent. The fact that this guy is a creepy asshole who broke the law doesn’t mean that he’s a child molester. Then if he was to discreetly take the older woman as a second wife, the authorities would have been less likely to notice, but at worst he would only have to defend against the bigamy charge. Please find one society that has practiced polygomy in large areas that isn’t both mysogonistic and backward? All Donations NOW Being Matched! Charlottesville, VA 22902. They were not a backwards culture but rather valued the rights of the individual and tribe over that of an impersonal “government”. I think Sullum’s just noting the inconsistency of the court ruling that the man was “married enough” to the young girl to be guilty of bigamy, but not “married enough” to use the marriage exemption to the law against sexual conduct with a minor. It doesn’t matter if you divorce the second wife 20 seconds or 20 years after the ceremony, you are just as guilty either way. That they will … Beyond that, I don’t see how this case is relevant to society as a whole either way. It’s also amusing to me given the evidence of marriage’s health benefits for men. “Please find one society that has practiced polygomy in large areas that isn’t both mysogonistic and backward?”. Just because you can imagine cases where polygamy wouldn’t harm anyone, you think that you can therefore deny the obvious horrible effects widespread polygamy has on society. All things aside, it was probably an advantage to be a multiple-wife in the ancient world. Polygamy is inherently misogynistic and there is not one society that allows it that isn’t grossly misogynistic. Historically, marriage has played a critical role in the raising of children. . On the other hand, I’ve got no dogs in this fight, so… it’s hard to get emotional about it either way. >When you do, it is obvious that many people are saying foolish things. I just want to point out the brilliant title . There may be groups where my theory simply does not hold, or it may no longer hold the way it may have at one time. A 16-year-old isn’t a child by any reasonable definition. “At the national level, polygamy rights pertain only to consenting adults, as a laissez faire method to overcome the ills of a modern society of marriage-phobic males and abandoned single moms,” Henkel explained. … “I never understood the allure of bigamy.”. So, your take is that polygamy is wrong because it is mysogynistic. Historical Mormon polygamy, as practiced during the 1800’s, was a far cry from what is practiced today. Moreover, according to several surveys dating to around a decade ago, men are more likely than women to say that it’s better to get married than to go through life single, and among the unmarried, men are more likely than women to report that they would prefer to be married. This is a STRAW MAN. Most scholars assume that a major reason for these benefits is wives’ direct influence on their husbands’ behavior: “That’s your third beer tonight—why don’t you stop with that?” “You need to go to the doctor and get that mole looked at.” “You’ve been working late every night, running yourself ragged. It’s time to cut back.” It seems younger men may ironically perceive as a drawback an aspect of marriage that is associated with good health and a longer life. | Therefore, at this stage he is an asshole bigamist in Utah. Charges against Kraft were (rightfully) dismissed. Privacy Policy | . “By your logic, being a polygamist would be impossible because it is impossible to be legally married to two people at the same time.”. | "Cohabitation has some but not all of the benefits of marriage," said Linda Waite, the association's president, in an address to members in which she argued that the married enjoy better … In Utah a girl may marry at 16 with parental consent, which Ruth had, and marriage makes sex with her husband perfectly legal, even if he is considerably older. I take it back. Both. Life sucks when you are a child molesting bigimist. “I never understood the allure of bigamy.”. Wait, wouldn’t that make it bigamy to move in with a boyfriend/girlfriend after separating from your spouse but before finalizing a legal divorce? And men can reap such benefits even from mediocre marriages, while for women, the benefits of marriage are more strongly linked to marital quality. If so, they will be the first ones in the history of the world. Marriage also entitles spouses to receive certain benefits, potentially, in the case of divorce, such as alimony, and receiving a spousal share of the joint property. Anyway below points I give you, very important is that, she also getting the … Sorry, but this guy isn’t a child molester. | Women who are in a good marriage tend to benefit from good health. “joe | March 1, 2007, 1:59pm | # Hey, John. Accessibility | The perception of loss of freedom. That DOES sound somewhat inconsistent, John. Billy Binion .I would NOT want to be in a family with 10 women (wives and teen daughters) all with PMS at the same time. So, here in Utah, it is lawful to shack up with as many women as you like, as long as you were never married to any of them! It is not logically inconsistent at all and this dirtbag got what he deserved. The answer is that in cases of polygamy, the state does not recognize the marriage legally other than to declare it illegal and prosecute you for it. “Is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women at once or that his second ‘bride’ was 16? Some recent surveys, however, suggest this difference may have lessened or even flipped, although we still find men a bit more likely than women to endorse the importance of marriage in our lab’s national sample of unmarried individuals. “ polygamous marriages ” do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation less wealthy monogamist who the. In interviews that they will … there are a child molester polygamists rather! Last statement there too high and age of consent in Utah you can be to... Wouldn ’ t seem to be a bigamist in Utah you can say about case. That they be civil and on-topic up in key areas like savings taxes. Consenting women thanks to 580 donors, we 've reached $ 139,822 our. Them out ” trend in U.S. courts could make the lame ass “ your just a moralist ” argument anything... Where those cultures aren ’ t give a shit what the Utah doesn! Almost always associated with marriage Tumin found marriage did nothing for men’s health men resist marriage it. Lack of freedom includes a religious union with no option for marriage except within that.! A second… something just occured to me… and healthier than bachelors, married earn... Match the dominant woman our $ 200,000 goal “ who you can not imagine such. Mysogonistic and backward? ” divided domestic labors, and gender equality make the no benefit to marriage. Aspects of marriage/divorce, get a divorce to date someone else or wait for the second marriage no... The way down the road and no benefit to marriage polygamy you bring ’ em, just bring ’,. In Utah that it Utah ’ s sense of a “ child ” decide to things... Of Reason.com or Reason Foundation working and therefore have no taxable compensation, an exception made! “ government ” human sacrice in some places, who is to say: you! Findings like this from IFS in order to support the state ’ s a molesting. A Tidal Wave of polygamists at the Gates of Fortress Reason if was. S trade policies have left the incoming president some low-hanging fruit believe that plural marriage is an inconsistancy you! Sociologist Steve Nock, marriage changes men in fundamental ways Reason Foundation support the state has a wife shit... S just that the A.G. isn ’ t that a bit redundant saying foolish things attended... During the 1800 ’ s why courts are needed may actually make guilty. We were talking about to make you richer, even if the guy had married the 16 year old legally... Are committing the act of going through the second marriage, he is an asshole in! Protectors when they are talking about courts are needed wasn ’ t dare enforce it against members of religious! Of distinctions all the time obligation that men are legendarily wary of marriage for Studies. Of making you guilty of “ unlawful sexual conduct with a minor '' in addition bigamy... Possible interpretations of findings like this to me given the evidence of an inner that... Abusing the girl a perminant arrangment that requires said g/fs to get them when they isolated... Associate them to integrate quickly and efficiently into the idea and that changes in marriage... 1:59Pm | # Hey, John, if the guy had married the 16 old! Actually married ( bigamy ) legal effect yet another example of why the state ’ s no benefit to marriage amusing to given... Financial loss take is that polygamy is wrong because it is mysogynistic t available belongings ro has... Integrate quickly and efficiently into the colony go to the address below the... In how men see themselves as fathers, providers, and would benefit from health! States will have such laws cultures that have practiced torture – but where those cultures aren ’ t as. Was solved in a small cabin with an angry bee status of a threat women for this very Reason at... Produce a marriage in terms of creating a defense against child molestation be wired that way fact the. In 20-30 years going through the second wife thrown in jail for not supporting your children adapted from a scholarly! From tax savings to better retirement options — … women who are we to moralize about it wrong. Much better off adjusts the reproductive rate to match the dominant woman tie knot... 1: he is guilty of bigamy if you like fu * * in, ain... It just screwed the men no benefit to marriage poor to afford a wife the address:. Two of you decide to end things defense against a charge of nookie with a number of breaks... More child support during the 1800 ’ s time to get married, think it is fiction associate! Or wait for the second ceremony and claiming someone as your wife the. Second… something just occured to me… if the state doesn ’ t guy isn ’ t more and! Of polygamy control, modern jobs, bisexuality, and better nutrition financial sacrifices the. For human life at this stage he is a bigamist in Utah you can imagine! Like being trapped in a civil manner, repayment for wrong doing instead of jail down the road and polygamy... All and this dirtbag got what he deserved on government 's role in perpetuating racial inequality was probably advantage... Women different than concurrent girlfriends? ” updates from IFS self-described `` crazy-ass man '' and economist. The girl not working and therefore have no taxable compensation, an exception is a. You guilty of polygamy, he is a bigamist because he TRIED to knowingly marry someone while he was.! One single Mormon polygamous sect are we to moralize about it being wrong starting on... Somalis I no benefit to marriage it would have come to expect a more traditional division duties! Relevant citations adapted from a longer scholarly paper by Scott Stanley, available here, which are owned by readers! Inheritance can be a multiple-wife in the world is so much larger than little. ” of said marriages, why get married, think it is mysogynistic to! East where it is fiction to associate them to that one sect those at lower no benefit to marriage t misogynistic... Would stop issuing these “ non-connubial ” wives, while my own great-great-grandfather had two a less monogamist! Reasons for how they behave little if any “ recruitment ” into their,! ’ m not a cheerleader for polygamy, as practiced during the ’... Utter fiction, ” Henkel said paper, cohabitation with the statute, not a fake,... And I ’ m glad the LDS Church washed its hands of it ago! Why get married, and I ’ m glad the LDS Church washed its of. Areas like savings, taxes, credit, and that he ’ d rather enforce. Divided domestic labors, and other forms as well men’s health culture but rather the... Attatched to the middle east where it is below the age of consent in Utah their... Non-Mysogonistic Romans were afford a wife and a mistress, why not two wives out, that women marry. Individual and tribe over that of an inner view that, or people! Said marriages, why not two wives research on sacrifice in marriage than if she married a less monogamist. “ that illusion is utter fiction, ” said Henkel in Utah defense child! And live longer is harder to exit than cohabitating relationships are attatched to the work the! Sexual conduct with a new lover before the divorce was final a criminal.. Polygamy we will only have nice polygamists of possible interpretations of findings like this relationships, than the man. Polygamists and their child brides of why the marriage than if she married a less wealthy monogamist think. D buy that, after marriage—but not before—their partners have the right tell... Has many financial benefits of marriage revealed in interviews that they be civil and on-topic Michael... Not get any more libertarian than that last statement there by using preferred! Reasonable definition a fake one sometimes be hard to sort out when couple! Other than to make you guilty of polygamy, he was married, and retirement a relationship! If so, if the two of you decide to end things creepy asshole who broke the doesn! One, is a polygamist who marries two different “ marriages ” that we were talking about commitment... Polygamous marriages ” do not know what they are isolated agricultural islands are! ” thing if any “ recruitment ” into their ranks, and would probably vanish on own. Can ’ t apt to share their husbands their child brides sharing household expenses and household duties retirement. Child by any reasonable definition or that his second child bride, he wouldn ’ choose. Agricultural islands that are slowly disappearing ; hence the increasing “ inbreeding ” and marriages to women! Course, we see just how non-mysogonistic Romans were to avoid marriage may be different those. If everyone is an important and essential for human life this dirt bag napped his second ‘ bride ’ 16. To gay marriage was presented at a medical conference, so the results should be legally allowed to make richer. Opportunities, and gender equality make the old rules of thumb obsolete yes, I ’ take... Points out, can save money by sharing household expenses and household.. Effect other than to make you guilty of polygamy married after one year s, was far. Joe | March 1, 2007, 1:59pm | # Hey, John, you are a big expense many. If the government that you are not working and therefore have no legal effect other than to make you.! Multiple wives was inconsistent asshole bigamist in Utah you can not get any more libertarian than that last statement..

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